Conversation between the translator, Chen Gang, and People's Horizon during the written interview by April 28, 2025:
The Victory of Socialism Is
an Irresistible Historical Law
Recently, the English version of renowned author Liu Jiaming's novel "Black and White" was published in the United States. People's Horizon website conducted a written interview with translator and publisher Mr. Chen Gang. Below is the transcript of the interview：
People's Horizon: Hello, Mr. Chen Gang! As the translator and publisher of "Black and White," how did you first encounter this work?
Chen Gang： Over two years ago, I began by reading commentary articles and serialized chapters on the Utopia website.
People's Horizon: What prompted you to decide to translate it?
Chen Gang: After reading it, I deeply realized that the high praise from many left-wing experts—describing it as "the pinnacle of contemporary Chinese realist writing, a visual history of contemporary Chinese social development," noting that "someday it will join the family of world literary classics because its exploration of history and examination of human nature far surpasses most Nobel Prize-winning works," and comparing it to "Tolstoy's War and Peace"—was entirely appropriate. This recognition exists objectively and historically, regardless of whether the Chinese mainstream, such as the Writers Association, or the global mainstream, like the Nobel Committee acknowledge it. Much like the evaluation of Chairman Mao's theory of continuing revolution, the Cultural Revolution, and Jiang Qing, history will eventually restore their true brilliance. Furthermore, the novel's phenomenal impact among ordinary readers after its publication further confirmed the objectivity of this positioning.
Based on this conviction, I thought if I could introduce this epic—comparable to "Dream of the Red Chamber," "The Golden Road," and "War and Peace," representing contemporary Chinese literature's highest achievement—to the English-speaking world, it would not only support the emerging but struggling domestic leftist movement loyal to Chairman Mao's continuing revolution line, but also add honor and fulfill a duty as an elderly faithful follower of Mao Zedong Thought. Therefore, I took the initiative to secure the honor of this translation from Mr. Liu Jiming.
People's Horizon: Which core themes or literary qualities of the novel attracted you?
Chen Gang：1.The novel's core theme is the upside-down reality brought to Chinese society by the capitalist restoration implemented by the revisionist capitalist-roaders. The political line determines everything. All tragedies began with completely negating Chairman Mao's basic theory and practice of continuing revolution under the banner of reform and opening up, using "liberating thought" and "practice is the sole criterion of truth" as the starting point. This first led to the comprehensive privatization of the market economy, subverting the economic foundation of the public ownership-based planned economy.2. The novel has two extremely prominent literary qualities: First, it's magnificent in scope, covering a century of history and touching all domains of society. Second, it's objectively realistic. Faithful to realist writing techniques, it describes events factually and calmly without commentary. Even though the author yearns for the Mao Zedong era, he doesn't avoid some mistakes of the first thirty years: the Anti-Rightist Movement, Great Leap Forward, People's Communes, public canteens, the Cultural Revolution's "overthrow everything," and May 7th Cadre Schools, such as the grievances brought to Professor Lang and Wang Shengli. Even when portraying outright villains, there's no stereotypical depiction—instead, it shows the father-daughter relationship of Song Qiankun, the brother-sister relationship of Hong Taihang, Wu Bozhong's affection for his mistress and biological son, including Lu Shengping's blind loyalty, "all of this was for the old leader."
People's Horizon: What blind spots do you think English readers might have regarding the Chinese social background in the book?
Chen Gang： The biggest misconception is that China is still a socialist country because the Communist Party rules it. Little do they know that socialism's essence is not Communist Party leadership but public ownership and common prosperity. In China, 0.33% of the population (4.6 million people) own 67.44% of the national wealth, while 9.62% (1.3 billion people) own only 6.98% (according to CICC's 2023 report).
People's Horizon: Who are the potential readers of the English version of "Black and White"?
Chen Gang： Translated literature comprises only a small portion of the American book market. About 1% of novels and poetry books sold in the United States are translated works by foreign authors. Many American readers prefer reading books originally written in English, making it difficult for translated works to enter the mainstream market.
The potential readers of the English version of "Black and White" should be similar to those of other translated mainstream authors like Mo Yan, Yu Hua, and Jia Pingwa: academic readers are the main audience for translated Chinese literature. University professors, researchers, and students in comparative literature, Asian studies, Chinese studies, and world literature are key readers. Particularly, students and faculty in university Chinese language courses. However, except for Mo Yan's works, which have more readers due to the Nobel Prize publicity, other writers' translated works, even novels with significant reputations in China, have limited sales in the English-speaking world.
Unlike the enthusiastic reception of "Black and White" among grassroots and ordinary readers in China, generating the same level of interest in America is difficult. This is because the Chinese common people have experienced decades of orthodox Marxism through Mao Zedong Thought and the experience of being masters of their own fate under the socialist system of the Mao era. The capitalist restoration of the past forty-plus years has reduced them again to exploited and oppressed vulnerable groups under the "four mountains" [of oppression], or even a negative-asset class. They yearn for socialism's return, arising naturally from these conditions. Therefore, "Black and White," which was written specifically for them and speaks out on their behalf—this thought-provoking people's realist work—naturally resonates with them.
America, meanwhile, is the stronghold of world capitalism and has never experienced socialism. It's also the world's largest Christian country, with 70% of adults being Christians, their thinking constrained by religion. America's mainstream capitalist ideology is powerful, with various media collectively brainwashing the masses. Communism is extremely marginalized in America, viewed as heresy. Even though polarization is severe, the American ruling class distributes some scraps from super-profits plundered worldwide to the American lower classes. Even the poorest can enjoy free healthcare, education, food, and shelter—their lives remain tolerable. Therefore, a true Marxist American Revolutionary Communist Party can't form a significant movement and has only one or two thousand members. Even the revisionist Communist Party of America has only ten to twenty thousand members. So ordinary American readers lack this political enthusiasm. Additionally, more than half of Americans have a reading level below sixth grade, making it difficult for them to understand complex literary works. Readers with less than college-level education are extremely unlikely to read English translations of Chinese realist novels.
People's Horizon: What is your political inclination?
Chen Gang： Completely aligned with author Liu Jiming. That is, using orthodox Marxism-Leninism-Mao Zedong Thought's standpoint, viewpoint, and methodology as the standard to determine political direction. The most fundamental inclination is hoping for China's return to socialism and revitalization of the international communist cause, which was abandoned due to the betrayal of the Chinese revisionist group.
People's Horizon: Did you encounter bottlenecks or difficulties during the translation process?
Chen Gang： None whatsoever.
People's Horizon: Which character in "Black and White" impressed you the most? Why?
Chen Gang： Song Qiankun, who typifies all characteristics of China's greatest revisionist leader: 1. Opportunism. Most impressively, the early betrayal of his family and opportunistic revolutionary motivation. The rumor about his affair with his father's concubine bears striking similarity [to certain historical figures], but Old Qi's account lacks corroborating evidence (also the episode of him being a deserter); 2. Betrayal. The work effectively confirms his betrayal, but as Kong Qingdong said, his betrayal was even more terrible than Fu Zhigao's. Fu Zhigao's betrayal only doomed the local underground party, while the traitors cultivated by the "Trojan Horse Plan" doomed the entire country, won by millions of martyrs. 3. The ferocity of the "Homecoming Legion" [returning landlords], Luo Zheng and Anna's imprisonment naturally evoke associations with the persecution of Mao's supporters, the "Gang of Five" and the "Three Types of People," and the consistent organizational method of "replacing people if they don't reform," such that red terror continues to this day.
People's Horizon: After repeatedly reading "Black and White" thoroughly, what was your strongest impression?
Chen Gang： The author's unique courage to offer his blood for the sacred land [a reference to patriotic sacrifice]. The courage to challenge today's "socialism with Chinese characteristics" as a core theme when writing contemporary history requires extraordinary bravery. Although it's the pinnacle of people's realism describing objective facts, who else but Liu Jiming would dare spend five years and 1.2 million words to break through the propaganda net woven by establishment writers at all levels, and speak the truth that only the little boy in the fable dared to reveal?
Additionally, he dares to challenge taboos in his creation, featuring historical figures like Qu Qiubai and Trotsky, historical events like the Cultural Revolution, the July 20th Incident, June 4th, the Tonggang Incident, as well as many prototypes that everyone knows and can associate with today.
People's Horizon: In your translator's afterword, you compared "Black and White" with Tolstoy's "War and Peace." Could you elaborate on the similarities and differences between these two works?
Chen Gang： In the hall of historical masterpieces, Liu Jiming's "Black and White" can be considered a contemporary counterpart to Tolstoy's "War and Peace." Liu Jiming's masterpiece has a similar vision and ambition, accomplishing for modern China what Tolstoy did for 19th-century Russia: a panoramic examination of social transformation through intimate personal stories and grand historical events.
"Black and White" matches "War and Peace" in scale and spirit. The book spans 590,000 Chinese characters, while "War and Peace" contains 580,000 words. "Black and White" features over 250 characters, while "War and Peace" has about 160, reflecting the complexity of modern society.
Tolstoy recorded the Napoleonic era, which occurred more than 50 years before his writing and signaled Russia's transformation toward capitalism, thus passing the Tsarist censorship. Liu Jiming, however, recorded China's transformation to "capitalism with Chinese characteristics" during the reform and opening period after abandoning Mao-era socialism—a period he personally experienced—examining the social upheaval of the past 50 years with equal historical weight. Precisely because it deals with contemporary history, even after four reprints in Hong Kong, the Beijing edition was banned by authorities, along with its online version, immediately after being printed.
Tolstoy presented Russia's evolution from feudal serfdom to capitalism from an omniscient, God's-eye perspective, while Liu Jiming uses a distinctly Marxist viewpoint to explore China's history of capitalist restoration after socialism, examining how social systems shape individual destinies. Through the intertwined stories of Wang Sheng, Gu Zheng, Du Wei, and others, Liu Jiming demonstrates how personal choices intertwine with larger historical forces, just as Tolstoy did through the lives of Pierre Bezukhov, Andrei Bolkonsky, and Natasha Rostova. Through realistic portrayal, he presents the dramatic lives of the younger generation like Wang Sheng, Gu Zheng, Zong Tianyi, Li Hong, Du Wei, Ba Dong, Lang Tao, Song Xiaofan, Hong Taihang, Chen Yimeng, and the older generation like Luo Zheng, Wang Shengli, the old principal, Lu Shengping, Song Qiankun, Wu Bozhong, and even Zong Da and Anna. These stories, alongside actual historical events like the Cultural Revolution, the Down to the Countryside Movement, May 7th Cadre Schools, the July 20th Incident, River Elegy, the June 4th Student Movement, the Tonggang Riot, the purge of the "Three Types of People," state enterprise reforms, worker layoffs, and forced prostitution, demonstrate how individual destinies are always connected to and transformed by society's fate.
The novel's complex structure rivals Tolstoy's artful interweaving of personal and historical narratives. Liu Jiming's innovative "beehive" structure allows multiple storylines to develop simultaneously, creating a rich tapestry covering everything from intimate family dramas to broad social movements. Just as Tolstoy seamlessly moves between Moscow salons and the Battle of Austerlitz, Liu Jiming moves between university campuses, corporate boardrooms, and factory floors, capturing every aspect of Chinese society. Like "War and Peace," "Black and White" integrates more than a dozen love stories—some tender, some tragic, some peculiar—into a relentless canvas of tragedy.
People's Horizon: Your afterword is quite profound. Could you share your understanding of contemporary Chinese literature in relation to "Black and White"?
Chen Gang： After coming to America, I had limited novel reading due to the busyness of working and running a business, mainly watching TV dramas. After retiring in 2008, besides stock trading and taking care of rental properties, I browsed some popular novels in my spare time, mainly several short stories by Wang Zengqi, several short and medium-length works by Hao Ran, the trilogy "Human Life" and "The Common People," Lu Yao's "Life" and "Ordinary World," Jia Pingwa's "Restlessness," "The Qin Opera," and "Ruined City," Yu Hua's "Brothers," Yan Lianke's "Hard as Water," "Serve the People," "Dream of Ding Village," Mo Yan's "Big Breasts and Wide Hips," "The Republic of Wine," Chen Zhongshi's "White Deer Plain," and several short and medium-length works by Tie Ning. So although I read only for entertainment, I still have some understanding of contemporary Chinese literature.
My overall impression is admiration for Hao Ran's consistently revolutionary life from childhood to adulthood, his vivid and simple rural language, and the reservations about rural reform expressed by a Communist Party member similar to Luo Zheng in "The Common People." I appreciate Wang Zengqi's poetic and beautiful language. At the time, I also appreciated Lu Yao's "Life" and "Ordinary World," mainly resonating with the ideological transformation of the younger generation similar to Wang Sheng. As for others, except for Jia Pingwa who is somewhat serious, all of them—including Tie Ning—denounce, satirize, and abuse the revolutionary era. Of course, their works also thoroughly expose the chaos of the reform and opening-up period. Due to these authors' own positions, their promoted themes mock the Mao Zedong era, satirize communism, and celebrate the farewell to revolution. This is precisely the mainstream of contemporary Chinese literature, as evidenced by the selection of successive chairpersons of the Writers Association and winners of the Mao Dun Literature Prize. Works of people's realism from a Marxist standpoint, like those of Cao Zhenglu and Liu Jiming, are as rare as phoenix feathers or unicorn horns.
Mainstream contemporary Chinese literature completely serves to maintain Chinese bureaucratic capitalism, thoroughly deviating from Chairman Mao's correct direction of serving workers, peasants, and soldiers and serving proletarian politics. Under the banner of reviving the profound Chinese culture, they attempt to re-corrupt, enslave, and exploit the masses through individualism, money worship, and Confucian doctrines—this is the mainstream of contemporary Chinese literature.
People's Horizon: Final question: Please share your understanding of Chinese society.
Chen Gang： As mentioned earlier, I believe today's China is a capitalist society. According to the scientific definition of Marxism, a society's nature is determined by its economic foundation. Today's Chinese economic foundation is dominated by privatized ownership and polarized distribution. This point is indisputably proven by both official statistics and those published by CICC. Upon this economic foundation, the superstructure must necessarily be a bourgeois regime. Because the ruling party is a revisionist group wearing the cloak of Marxism, and one-party dictatorship is the natural and inevitable form of Marxism during the transitional period, there is no need to adopt the democratic system used by classical capitalism as a disguise. China's bourgeois ruling form openly employs a dictatorial political system. The ruled class is completely deprived of democratic rights. Thus, Chinese capitalism has taken on the characteristics of bureaucratic capitalism.
As of 2023, the anti-corruption campaign that began in 2012 has led to about 2.4 million government officials being prosecuted for corruption. The scale of this crackdown indicates the pervasiveness of the problem. Additionally, in China, the chance of corrupt officials ultimately being imprisoned has traditionally been less than 5%, making corruption a high-return, low-risk activity. This creates conditions where officials can use their positions for personal wealth accumulation.
Even without illegal income, corrupt Chinese officials often come from the upper range of China's income distribution. When their corrupt income is included, almost all reach the top 5% of China's urban income distribution. This shows how political power directly translates into economic advantage.
Chinese bureaucratic capitalism has the following characteristics:
Fusion of political power and economic benefits: In a system where almost all senior public officials have participated in corrupt practices, everyone could potentially become a target of corruption investigations. This indicates the widespread phenomenon of using positions for personal gain.
Using state relationships for private benefits: The anti-corruption campaign has targeted nearly 40,000 so-called criminal groups and corrupt companies, with over 50,000 Communist Party members and government officials punished for assisting them, revealing the close relationship between officials and businesses.
A systemic rather than individual problem: Xi Jinping called corruption "the biggest threat facing our party," indicating it's a widespread issue, not isolated incidents. The popular saying "no official is not corrupt" reflects public awareness of this reality.
Consistent with the economic foundation and superstructure of bureaucratic capitalism, China is ruled by bureaucratic capitalist ideology. Its characteristics are a hodgepodge of feudalism, capitalism, and revisionism. Mr. Liu Jiming summarized it incisively: using nationalism to replace the class narratives of Marxism-Leninism and the liberal narratives of the West, using red culture to maintain political legitimacy, and using market principles to create a hierarchical community of interests are the three magic weapons of the bureaucratic bourgeoisie's victory. Maintaining rule over working people internally and strengthening social-imperialist expansion and competing for hegemony with American imperialism externally are China's current basic national policies.
However, productive forces determine production relations, and people are the decisive force in historical development. Crises and wars are inevitable laws of capitalism. China's capitalist restoration can only delay the lifespan of the capitalist system, but its demise and socialism's victory are inevitable historical laws—though I may not live to see them.